Jung & Naiv: Interview with Historian Jörg Baberowski
On History and Objectivity
Baberowski argues that complete objectivity is a myth - all historians work from subjective standpoints shaped by their cultural background and personal perspectives. The crucial thing is being transparent about one's viewpoint rather than pretending to neutral distance. He emphasizes that historians should make clear their theoretical assumptions and cultural baggage when presenting their work.
The Power of Rhetoric
Drawing on Foucault, Baberowski explains that rhetoric is decisive in scholarship, journalism, and politics - it's not enough to be right; you must persuade your audience. He contrasts German academic culture (which favors dry, "objective" writing) with English and American traditions (which embrace storytelling and personal narrative). This connects to broader questions about how education fails to teach rhetoric despite its importance in democratic societies.
How Humans Create Meaning
Humans are "meaning-producing beings" who create narratives to cope with mortality and uncertainty. Western culture tends toward linear stories of decline and redemption (rooted in Christian tradition), while other cultures think cyclically. Everyone must create their own meaning, and this explains why people in different circumstances (like those focused on survival vs. future generations) prioritize different concerns.
Religion and Story-Telling
Baberowski, raised Catholic but not religious in the traditional sense, discusses how Christianity provides meaning through its narrative structure. He explores how religious experience connects to community and ritual rather than just doctrine, and how the need for meaning-making explains why people embrace different ultimate visions even when they can't know if they're true.
Putin's Russia and Historical Revisionism
Putin has created a "black box" system where decision-making is opaque and competing historical narratives are eliminated. By opening borders during the Ukraine war, he exiled the intellectual opposition, allowing only state-approved views to remain. This return to a single authoritative historical interpretation mirrors Stalin's approach - the state controls how history is understood and taught.
Regarding the Ukraine war, Baberowski argues Putin stumbled into an escalation trap: having staged the invasion as a quick victory, he cannot now admit failure without losing everything. The war has paradoxically strengthened Ukrainian national identity rather than weakening it, as Putin destroyed the very regions he sought to win over.
Personal Journey
Baberowski came from a working-class, non-academic family. After a troubled youth where he skipped school and worked construction, a philosopher-teacher recognized his potential and guided him toward academia. He learned Russian independently and studied in the Soviet Union during its collapse in 1991, giving him firsthand experience of scarcity and social breakdown that deeply informs his historical perspective.
Democracy and Populism
He distinguishes between liberalism (which favors elite rule to protect against "mob rule") and democracy (rule by the people). Representative democracy was historically designed to keep the masses at a distance - it's not a natural form of democracy but an oligarchic compromise. Populism can invigorate democracy when it challenges unquestioned assumptions, but becomes dangerous when it threatens the constitutional order.
The current crisis of democracy stems from people feeling they have less influence over decisions that affect their lives, with key issues being decided in Brussels or by unelected technocrats rather than through meaningful democratic participation.
Contemporary Politics
Baberowski criticizes the "rearmament madness" and argues Europe should return to Willy Brandt's policy of détente - building trust alongside defense rather than relying solely on weapons. He emphasizes that while NATO expansion wasn't the cause of the Ukraine war, smart politicians should have anticipated how it would be perceived by Russian leadership.